Jack Linden Office hours March 11th, 2010
Sunday, March 14th, 2010JACK LINDEN OFFICE HOUR 03/11/2010
[10:59] Jack Linden: hey folks
[10:59] Eddi Decosta: Hi Jack, long time no see!! ?
[10:59] Quarterback Orcenhall: hello hack
[10:59] Ardy Lay: Hi Jack
[10:59] Quarterback Orcenhall: jack*
[10:59] Eddi Decosta: how are you? ?
[10:59] Jack Linden: hehe is it this time again already!
[11:00] RedMokum Bravin: Hi 
[11:00] Equinox Pinion: wow…did you get a new watch jack
[11:00] Jack Linden: i’m good thanks Eddi. how are you guys?
[11:00] Eddi Decosta: im fine thanks! ?
[11:00] Quarterback Orcenhall: aching all over from the gym, but im ok lol
[11:00] Jack Linden: noo Equinox, i already own the best watch ever.
[11:00] Zoha Boa: hi everybody
[11:00] Eddi Decosta: i have my dose of coffee, im ready to work lol
[11:00] Equinox Pinion: hope it is swiss
[11:01] Arawn Spitteler: Anybody know how to send a TP, from SL2?
[11:01] Jack Linden: Equinox, Omega.
[11:01] Equinox Pinion:
[11:01] Chaley May: hi
[11:01] Driftwood Miles: swiss waches are usually an hour out for me 
[11:01] Jack Linden: okays, so who has something for us to discuss this week?
[11:01] Asterion Coen: hello folks
[11:01] Quarterback Orcenhall: what is the topic of debate here today ???
[11:01] Jack Linden: ha nice Driftwood
[11:01] Equinox Pinion: ack, you made us wait months for the script limits implementation and now you just did it how most of us told you not to do, you will measure the script amounts not the script times. 1000 scripts can take a sim down but they will be still allowed in your script “limits”, we will have no control over script time abusing scripts, that doesnt help us at all..
[11:01] LisaDeanna Zhora: I would like to know. What is with all the servers/HOST problems. (Asset server error messages, attachment errors, missing from database errors) and so forth. Phone support keeps telling it’s the client end. If so, then v2.0 needs to go!
[11:01] Jack Linden: Quarterback.. no topic as such, we tend to keep it open
[11:02] Quarterback Orcenhall: ok fair enough
[11:02] Jack Linden: Equinox, we’re measuring memory (reserved rather than dynamic)
[11:02] LisaDeanna Zhora: Mr. Dreifach, doesn’t seem to be willing to help either.
[11:03] Jack Linden: Which is what we’ve been saying all along. Reporting on ms wouldn’t really work
[11:03] Equinox Pinion: yes but one script has a certain memory…16kb for a lsl script..but they can use different scipt time and one can abuse the sim performance
[11:03] Jack Linden: Yes, but the performance problems are far more often a result of memory than cpu
[11:03] Equinox Pinion: you also count the old lsl scripts as 16kb and mono scripts as 64kb, did you ever think about what impact that will have?
[11:04] Eddi Decosta: hey salut asterion, comment vas? ?
[11:04] Jack Linden: It’s memory issues that cause regions to drop into swap, and then bad things happen. cpu is far less of an issue
[11:04] Techwolf Lupindo: 16K for LSL allocated. 64K reserved for mono, but much less is allocated when script is running.
[11:04] Equinox Pinion: worsed case…100 sion chicken will be still ok in your script limit but make the sim totaly laggy
[11:04] Eddi Decosta: sorry my french talking lol :p
[11:04] Zeebster Colasanti: ditto for hippo rent boxes
[11:04] Equinox Pinion: you have to allocate that manually tech…who will do that?
[11:04] Alexxa Despres: I was wondering the same thing Jack…I have had numerous issues….from TP’s to NOT being able to buy lindens ( I have heard this over and over from my residents as well as others) It has been a horrendous week for performance 
(
[11:05] Quarterback Orcenhall: i have heard that the beta viewer 2.0 has problems which need to be corrected, is this true? because i’ve delayed getting in on hearing this rumour
[11:05] Chaley May: Jack.. i have found out that this hair i wear uses 16000kb memory when i looked on beta servers.. i think thats 16mb.. but because this hair is no modify what can i do about it?? most of us might have scripts we cant remove or replace without permission
[11:05] Jack Linden: Equinox, we did. We had a tough choice to make.. we could try to inflate the LSL numbers falsely to even things up, or we could be honest about the current ‘reserved’ memory footprints.. which will have LSL at 16k and Mono at 64k. We’d rather just give the honest real numbers at this stage because..
[11:05] Jack Linden: ..around Q3 we will allow Mono scripts to set their own size, from 64k down to 4k
[11:05] Equinox Pinion: also that measure system is only working in the 2.0 viewer..will you make all of us use a beta product?
[11:06] Jack Linden: So at that point the issue is moot
[11:06] Eddi Decosta: honesly, i dont love this beta, cause the beta are very unstable for me .. all times my fps drop and i crash on that
[11:06] Techwolf Lupindo: Chaley, after you resized it, there sould be a command to remove all those scripts. If not, even if no-mod, you can still delete scripts withen an object.
[11:06] Zeebster Colasanti: Jack, why need to make that decision in the first place? why not allow us to report on whatever we want?
[11:06] Chaley May: there isnt a command
[11:06] Jack Linden: Equinox, I’m not sure as yet whether they will add it into the older viewer or not, though certainly the 3rd party developers could easily do that
[11:06] Chaley May: i tried deleting by hand and it said i dont have permission
[11:06] LisaDeanna Zhora: Jack, why did they make v2.0 to open more applications like Edit window (slplugin.exe) when you use it? Wouldn’t that cause more issues than not?
[11:07] Chaley May: oh wait i didnt try rezzing it on the floor
[11:07] Jack Linden: Not sure I understand you Zeebster. How would we allow you to report on anything?
[11:07] RedMokum Bravin: I observed that viewer 2.0 beta needs 3 times as much CPU time as 1.23.5 on my computer. Bit odd.
[11:07] Techwolf Lupindo: Chaley, you have to drag and drop the scipt into your inventory. That will remove it from the ojbect then you can trash it from your inventory.
[11:08] Qie Niangao: (Chaley, it may not work even then… there’s some funky interaction between copy-permission of the embedded script and no-mod of the object, IIRC)
[11:08] Jack Linden: LisaDeanna, I’m not sure on that one.. would need to ask the Viewer team
[11:08] Zeebster Colasanti: Top 100 scripts by allocated memory. top 100 scripts by ms, top 100 scripts by system calls, top 100 scripts by external calls (web, etc)
[11:08] Zeebster Colasanti: simple reports on data that exists. shouldn’t be hard to do
[11:08] Eddi Decosta: bonsoir Laurent ?
[11:08] Jack Linden: Oh I see Zeebster.. I expect in time we will. Makes total sense to offer more information
[11:08] LisaDeanna Zhora: Lisa is fine, and thanks. I tried but as it seems in most things in sl. We don’t get answers.
[11:09] Jack Linden: But this is our first step towards script limits, so it needed to be Memory
[11:09] Liisa Runo: i would like to get confirmation to one thing in http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:About_ad_farms_and_network_advertisers . the “…primary purpose in placing the advertising content is to force the sale of land rather than genuinely advertise…” gives me impression that ALL “parcel for sale”-signs are forbidden. is this true?
[11:09] Chaley May: i will try these later when i am at a place where i can be bald lol
[11:09] Equinox Pinion: the other thing I was wondering, you put now 8 sims per server, the servers got cheaper and it costs you the same as 3 years ago to get one, you just run 4 more sims on them, why dont we benefit from that too in a tier decrease?
[11:09] Arawn Spitteler: Fordce, rather than Invite
[11:10] Zeebster Colasanti: Jack, what i’m saying is that it didn’t need to be memory. it could have been anything, and the choice could have been given to us. i really do wish that LL included the community in these decisions
[11:10] Jack Linden: No Liisa, as with many things re. land policies there are many edge cases and grey areas. We especially wanted to prevent people having their View held hostage which had been happening more and more
[11:10] Equinox Pinion: agree with zeebster
[11:10] Equinox Pinion: it is very frustrating for us that you never listen to us
[11:11] LisaDeanna Zhora: Agree Equinox
[11:11] Zoha Boa: or don’t explain WHY you do something
[11:11] Jack Linden: Equinox, it’s not as simple as hardware getting cheaper, we also keep increasing the spec, using more bandwidth, with better fibre networks between colos, and of course adding new colos.
[11:11] Jack Linden: There are many many factors regarding costs
[11:12] Arawn Spitteler: A FRustrum is a Pyramid that doesn’t get to the point. Jack might listen, but if decisions are made by those we don’t know about, we can feel frustrated.
[11:12] Jack Linden: We aim to keep on pushing at many fronts to improve the inworld experience people have.
[11:12] Equinox Pinion: well…i would take more performance as a benefit too..but you put script limits on the sim now…not improving what we get
[11:12] Zeebster Colasanti: this functionality can do more bad than good. i can just see someone with a 100 sion chickens pulling out a nice memory usage report to “prove” that their scripts are not using much resources.
[11:12] LisaDeanna Zhora: And the sims keep going down on performance too during that time
[11:13] Eddi Decosta: Jack, i have a 9800gtx+ 512 mb for my graphic card and i have some trouble of lag with the 2.0 2291 ..
[11:13] Techwolf Lupindo: Turn off the adult bit. The grid, exceptelly group chat, started to suffer greatlly when theat bit was flipped.
[11:13] Equinox Pinion: so do i zeebster…and i already see theargument i have with that resident lol
[11:13] Jack Linden: Zeebster, because we will limit scripts by Memory, it absolutely did need to be that which we first expose. Because we have to give people as much lead time as we possibly can.. and Memory is the key metric. That doesn’t mean we’re not listening and won’t add other data as well
[11:13] Eddi Decosta: and on my cheap laptop with a intel945m i never crash on the 2.0 lol
[11:13] Quarterback Orcenhall: im heading off now, nice meeting you jack, bye all
[11:14] Equinox Pinion: bye quarterback
[11:14] Driftwood Miles: Jack you mentioned looking at allowing premium residents being able to use some of their “allowance” against Estate land. As you are really pushing premium membership….what is the liklihood of this and what form would it take?
[11:14] Quarterback Orcenhall: bye equinox
[11:14] Zoha Boa: if the memory usage is THE lag problem..why don’t you add more ram then ?
[11:14] Zeebster Colasanti: this is going to cause us problems in the meantime, Jack. it will be difficult to explain to people that they need to remove some scripts that are reported by LL sanctioned tools as behaving well
[11:14] Jack Linden: Eddi, lag is a very difficult word because it can mean so many things. A good gfx card won’t help, for example, if their are network latency issues, or low RAM or many other problems that can appear to be ‘lag.
[11:14] Equinox Pinion: yes zoha..that would be a benefit for us…and not putting 8 sims on a server
[11:15] Eddi Decosta: for my ram i have 4go of ddr2 800 ..
[11:15] RedMokum Bravin: It’s 7 sims + general use according to Andrew
[11:15] Jack Linden: Driftwood, it’s really just an idea at this stage but one that we are actively looking at to see how feasible is it and what would make sense.
[11:15] Jack Linden: We’d also want to have some community conversations to see whether people think it would be a good idea
[11:15] Aztral Aeon: Ya…when i scripted my builds there was no mention of memory limits. Now you wanna impose limits retroactively. Just pop in some mem chips (which will have to be done anyway)
[11:16] Driftwood Miles: ok, understood……..puts my tick in the GOOD IDEA box
[11:16] Zeebster Colasanti: yes, Jack, it would be a good idea. we’ve had these conversations for i think a couple years now
[11:16] Eddi Decosta: Aztral, on script and sculpty buil for my part ?
[11:16] Equinox Pinion: you have hope they will listen driftwood
[11:16] Aztral Aeon:
[11:16] HimBaer Pfeffer: hi all
[11:16] Aztral Aeon: i would find the most offending script in SL…and going forward use that as limit
[11:16] LisaDeanna Zhora: Hi Him
[11:16] Eddi Decosta: i notice this bad stuff error on all sculpty textures load ?
[11:17] Driftwood Miles: hopefully Equi
[11:17] Jack Linden: the boxes that have 8 cpus are higher performing than those that have 4, and all else is equal (same or more memory per cpu). there should be no disadvantage at all from being on one of those machine, and probably it would be better.
[11:17] Equinox Pinion:
[11:17] Aztral Aeon: that way nothing gets broked
[11:17] Eddi Decosta: loll Jack, you change the computer with mine? :p
[11:17] Techwolf Lupindo: The best script limits to put in place is total ms per avatar, you can allways slow down a script without problems, but what do you do when script memory runs out, crash it?
[11:18] Equinox Pinion: as i said before..why didnt you put 6 sim on a server and give us more memory per sim to use so we can benefit from the lower costs too
[11:18] Motor Loon: There’s a lot more bottlenecks in a computer than CPUS and RAM though.
[11:18] HimBaer Pfeffer: Jack, i won´t disturb, can i send a 4 rows notecard please ?
[11:18] Ciaran Laval: Are the script limits and how they work going to be set by people who actually have a clue how the world works, unlike the new viewer which seems to be totally oblivious about how people inworld work
[11:18] Zoha Boa: we have refunedeD ALL club land on our sims jack, because when there are more then 20 people on a sim you can’t move anymore. We just kicked them out. all those problems started and december
[11:18] Jack Linden: Techwolf, using ms is really tough because of course everything else going on, will impact it. That number will be constantly changing
[11:18] Zoha Boa: the moment you started with 8 sims per server
[11:18] Aztral Aeon: Eh..some of us have lots of land. per AV won’t work. unfair i pay a billion $ a month and have same limit as someone paying $10
[11:19] Eddi Decosta: Jack; i use windows 7 home premium in 64 bites
[11:19] Jack Linden: Ciaran, the limits, when we eventually set some, will be very sensible yes. We’ve data on literally every region and parcel and how much script load is generated.. and the large (very large) majority of people/parcels will not be affected
[11:19] LisaDeanna Zhora: Time to sell Aztral and wake someone up
[11:20] Zeebster Colasanti: Jack, that in itself is a problem
[11:20] Aztral Aeon: hehe
[11:20] Jack Linden: Aztral, the limits will be set by how much land you own.. just the same as prims
[11:20] LisaDeanna Zhora:
[11:20] Aztral Aeon: ok..sry. just my 2 L$
[11:20] Zeebster Colasanti: there is lag on pretty much every commercial zoned sim
[11:20] Zeebster Colasanti: we’re not talking here about a few with 100 avatars on a freebie land
[11:20] Dennis Lagan: jack, why dont you provide us with a script time limit per parcel, just like you want to do now for script memory?
[11:20] Zeebster Colasanti: we’re talking about problems on most commercial sims
[11:21] LisaDeanna Zhora: Last I heard, per parcel is what they are looking at
[11:21] Equinox Pinion: script time per parcel is what we need urgent
[11:21] Eddi Decosta: yup when the region have 25 people or more, the fps drop between 5 or 3 ?
[11:21] LisaDeanna Zhora: heard – read
[11:21] Zoha Boa: Jack, we are with 36 people here..can you rezz a prim and put on each side of it a diffent texture within 1 miN ?
[11:21] HimBaer Pfeffer: <<<< often hurtet from a special nation and i ask for ban by IP range ?????
[11:21] Qie Niangao: look… memory has to be attacked first because when a sim starts swapping, every sim on that server suffers, and dramatically.
[11:21] Eddi Decosta: but now im on the 1.23 and i get no trouble ?
[11:21] HimBaer Pfeffer: i mean land griefers
[11:22] Chaley May: the new 8 core servers have 24 gb ram?
[11:22] Dennis Lagan: thats the question Qie, will it be a “first”, or will it stop there
[11:22] Jack Linden: Interesting test Zoha.. not sure. I’m on a laptop though so using a trackpad might make that much harder hehe
[11:22] Equinox Pinion: good answer jack
[11:22] Zoha Boa: whatever PC you are..36 people is only 30% of the capacity..you just can’t
[11:22] LisaDeanna Zhora: Oh but Jack.. we need EASE OF USE for noobs dont we?
[11:23] Qie Niangao: yeah, that’s a legit question Dennis… because controlling CPU usage (as with quotas) imposes an *enormous* overhead
[11:23] Jack Linden: hehe
[11:23] Arawn Spitteler: The conversation blinks on and off on SL2
[11:23] HimBaer Pfeffer: teleporting in and out a sim sucks a region,.. this began before a year ,.. some new services running on our servers ?
[11:24] HimBaer Pfeffer: stucks sorry
[11:24] Chaley May: i really want to know how much ram i get only
[11:24] Jack Linden: I think script limits re. memory are a first step.. not the last. We have to keep adding better tools for developers
[11:24] Qie Niangao: I just want to know *when* I get to know how much RAM.
[11:24] Ciaran Laval: I think Babbage is on topo of the teleporting issues, well one of the issues anyway
[11:24] Zeebster Colasanti: how about for land owners, Jack?
[11:24] Eddi Decosta: Jack, let me know , i have a phenom script and i know this hud is very scripted, i have paid for this hud, and im worried if you instaure a limite of script this hud never work after ..
[11:24] Jack Linden: What do you mean Zeebster?
[11:25] Zeebster Colasanti: you said “tools for developers”
[11:25] HimBaer Pfeffer: 386 MB virual ram tells me about around 512 ram each region 
[11:25] Zeebster Colasanti: how about tools for us?
[11:25] Zeebster Colasanti: to help us manage the land
[11:25] Jack Linden: Better tools? absolutely.. landowner tools are key
[11:25] Talarus Luan: That’s who he means.. “Us” = “Developers”
[11:25] Qie Niangao: (btw, at Babbage’s OH yesterday, it sounds as if there are still problems when Mono scripts DE-rez from the sim, but the rezzing is better)
[11:25] Zeebster Colasanti: then talk to us before you develop them
[11:25] Equinox Pinion: avatars dont count towards the script memory eddie
[11:26] Jack Linden: Edii, i expect the hud will be fine so long as the region/parcel you are on are not using very heavy amounts of script memory
[11:26] Eddi Decosta: awww Equi ; you rassur me ?
[11:26] Talarus Luan: Avatars will count, but against a separate sim-wide memory pool
[11:26] Jack Linden: Yes, as Tal says.. a separate pool
[11:26] Zeebster Colasanti: seriously?!!!
[11:26] Talarus Luan: Yes, seriously
[11:26] Dennis Lagan: jack, why did it take almost 1.5 years to provide the tools we have now in viewer 2? it doesn’t do anything more then saying the amount of scipts that are in an object, and say if they are lsl or mono at this point.
[11:26] Equinox Pinion: geeez
[11:26] Zeebster Colasanti: so you mean that a 4096 sqm parcel can invite 40 avatars and kill a sim even with the memory limits?
[11:27] Talarus Luan: No, because avatars will be limited as well
[11:27] Equinox Pinion: does that meand if heavy avis are on a commercial sim after 30 people nobody will be able to tp there?
[11:27] Talarus Luan: 40 avatars will be sharing the avatar script memory pool, as opposed to the parcel memory pool
[11:27] Jack Linden: Dennis, it’s been a long road. To do this properly we had to redesign parts of the simulator to let us properly get data and control scripts. So it wasn’t simple.
[11:27] Eddi Decosta: ok Jack, thanks cause honestly with you , some resident could be open some tiket for protestation and some reclamations, im little worried by this after ..
[11:28] Dennis Lagan: if it takes that long to implement, your software is just written messy
[11:28] Equinox Pinion: tal does that mean we can have only 40 avis on a sim in future
[11:28] Aztral Aeon: hehe
[11:28] LisaDeanna Zhora: Oh so that explains all this SIM performance stuff taht phone support says IS NOT in place yet. Ok, which hand knows the other?
[11:28] Jack Linden: Dennis, we have certainly had a lot of legacy code over the years. Second Life has been around a while now.. sometimes we have to do major work under the hood to keep moving forward
[11:28] Talarus Luan: I doubt the number of avs allowed will change at all. The different is that some of your objects’ scripts simply will not load/function if the avatar pool is used up.
[11:28] Qie Niangao: that’s consistent, Lisa: it’s not in place yet
[11:28] Equinox Pinion: jack can you please clarify the avi script pool
[11:28] Jack Linden: It will often make more sense to do that early than to build more on top of older systems
[11:29] Zeebster Colasanti: no Equinox. the guy with a little 4096 sqm parcel can only have 40 avatars. the rest of the sim doesn’t get anything because the pool is full
[11:29] Aztral Aeon: I mean SL is built onto of other APIs..effective it’s just the ‘glue’
[11:29] Talarus Luan: It doesn’t affect /avatars/, it affects avatars’ /scripts/.
[11:29] Equinox Pinion: lol
[11:29] Aztral Aeon: er..on top of..
[11:29] Talarus Luan: You still can pack in 100 or how ever many non-script-using avatars into a sim
[11:29] Equinox Pinion: so the first 40 people will have running scripts…if you have bad luck and tp as number 41 even you have alsmot nothing on you…it will just not run??
[11:30] Ciaran Laval: How will it figure out what needs to stop working though?
[11:30] Jack Linden: Equinox, I don’t have much more detail than that.. there will be an Avatar script pool, and again for the huge majority of people they may never see it impact them.. but in some places with enough highly scripted agents it could come into play and limit them
[11:30] Talarus Luan: Pretty much.
[11:30] Motor Loon: You’re all so negative, scriptslimits will be a benefit to us all – LL are not putting this in to punish us, but to help us get a better experience… Im very excited, and I’m even a creator of extremely highly scripted products.
[11:30] Techwolf Lupindo: I like to see no-script be NO-SCRIPT, where scripts are not run at all. With the client side AO, one doesn’t need running scripts at all for attending events.
[11:30] Qie Niangao: no, but if the pool is exhausted by the 40th avatarj’s scripts, the 41st’s won’t run
[11:30] Jack Linden: But we’re still working through the user experience parts.. for example, how the Viewer shows you when something can’t run
[11:30] Eddi Decosta: i hope this thing is not verified by the rendering cust, cause the viewer 2.0 modify that thing …
[11:30] Equinox Pinion: i am not against script limits motor…just not like linden wants to do it
[11:30] Zeebster Colasanti: yes. but i think if someone is renting 1/4 sim that is lightly used, they should be able to bring say… 10 avatars and have a little party, without worrying over the fact that there is no avatar pool left because their neighbor on a 4096 parcel is having himself a party with 40 avatars
[11:31] Talarus Luan: Has nothing to do with rendering cost
[11:31] Aztral Aeon: True Motor..but some us have products out..we spent the time to script them and there was no mention of limits when that occured
[11:31] LisaDeanna Zhora: Agree Motor. I am for it too. It will also help with cross region performance as well
[11:31] Talarus Luan: Well, if you’re on mainland, and your neighbor has 40 avs in the region, you’re not getting into the sim anyway, let alone your 8 other friends.
[11:31] Talarus Luan: *9
[11:31] LisaDeanna Zhora: Time to revamp I guess then
[11:31] Qie Niangao: well, Zeeb, that’s a problem, with or without *script* limits
[11:31] Aztral Aeon: I am for limits..but not at the expense of breaking things already out
[11:32] Motor Loon: If your products are well scripted Aztral, I seriously doubt you will have anything to worry about.
[11:32] RedMokum Bravin: Apart from that people still use 1024×1024 textures on 2000 piece necklaces.
[11:32] Equinox Pinion: agree aztral
[11:32] Jack Linden: Aztral, we are going to try very hard not to break anything.
[11:32] RedMokum Bravin: How about an automatic warning during upload of such textures.
[11:32] Liisa Runo: if no-script becomes real NO-SCRIPT some day, i want some kind of “you are about to TP to no-script area [CANCEL] [TP anyway] ” confirmation popup to make sure i never need to go to that kind of place
[11:32] LisaDeanna Zhora: Most designers would / should take it upon themsleves to redo and get ready for the limits too, IMHO
[11:32] Aztral Aeon: hehe…some products are just gonna use more memory no matter how scriped they are
[11:32] Eddi Decosta: Jack, you can run other script lsl with the http-in request? ?
[11:32] Jack Linden: Liisa, I agree. Warning before you try to TP would be ideal
[11:33] Aztral Aeon: And btw…been a C++ dev for like 25years…so take that into account
[11:33] Dennis Lagan: Jack, since an avatar can atttach about 9000 prims, wouldn’t it make sense to bump the prim counts for sims, with script limits in place? 100 avi’s in a full sim can wear then a total of 900.000 prims, while the sim itself can only have 15000 or 3750 prims, pending on the type.
[11:33] HimBaer Pfeffer: don´t need a limitation of avatars per parcel, i need more possibillities to filter by objectname,. a checkbox to disable temprezz and disallow banlines (access list)
[11:33] Qie Niangao: Hey, Jack, here’s an idea… Talarus and I can field the script memory limit questions next week, and you can ban the microparcel extortionists. Deal?
[11:33] Arawn Spitteler: “You are about to TP into a No Script Zone; would yo like o arrive 50 meters higher?”
[11:33] Talarus Luan: Avatar prims are different than simulated prims
[11:33] Zeebster Colasanti: a solution for scripts to use less memory is to use memory on external databases instead. results in dramatically increased volumes of external calls.
[11:33] Dennis Lagan: (less for homesteads ofcourse)
[11:33] Motor Loon: Sure Aztral… but we can always optimize our products, dont tell me you can’t do that with your… because I’ve been optimizing mine for 3 years and I still have work to do on them before I can say they cant possibly be done better.
[11:33] LisaDeanna Zhora: Attachments to an avatar doesnt count against region prims
[11:33] Talarus Luan: They are always phantom
[11:34] Talarus Luan: The simulator pretty much just passes them on to the viewer and ignores them
[11:34] Eddi Decosta: Arawn , its not 70m over? ?
[11:34] Talarus Luan: Except for scripts running in them, of course.
[11:34] Aztral Aeon: hehe…they are optimised. in fact in don’t use list anymore in part because of the memory leaks
[11:34] LisaDeanna Zhora: True
[11:34] Motor Loon: Oh yes… memory leaks Jack… add that to someones to-do list
[11:35] Aztral Aeon: which has been “showstopper” listed for over a year
[11:35] Talarus Luan: What memory leaks?
[11:35] Motor Loon: top of his/hers list.
[11:35] Jack Linden: oh it’s on the list Motor.. we’re well aware of that
[11:35] LisaDeanna Zhora: for how long?
[11:35] Zeebster Colasanti: haha! Tal, there’s only one reason to restart a computing process: memory leaks
[11:35] Motor Loon: Good… If you was wearing your ol’lady outfit Jack – I might kiss you for that…
[11:35] Aztral Aeon: since last January
[11:35] Talarus Luan: <.<
[11:35] Talarus Luan: What memory leaks are you referring to?
[11:35] Aztral Aeon: over last year that is
[11:36] Aztral Aeon: lists
[11:36] Techwolf Lupindo: Memory leaks and memory fragmentation.
[11:36] Aztral Aeon: they leaky creatures
[11:36] Equinox Pinion: wouldnt be too fast motor…being on a list doesnt mean anything
[11:36] HimBaer Pfeffer: what about safety by disallowing 3. party viewers ? for example the whio can copy items !
[11:36] Talarus Luan: I’ve not seen any memory leaks associated with managing lists. *shrug*
[11:36] LisaDeanna Zhora: Question is, where on that list IS it
[11:37] Aztral Aeon: oh 3rd party viewers…how bout a “llGetAvatarViewer()”?
[11:37] Jack Linden: LisaDeanna, that’s a question for the developers really. I’m not sure
[11:37] HimBaer Pfeffer: YES ! i am tired of mad code
[11:37] Talarus Luan: I’ve got several list-manipulating scripts that have been running continuously without running out of memory for .. 2 years?
[11:37] LisaDeanna Zhora: I was teasing , Jack
[11:37] Liisa Runo: viewer can cheat and appear to be any other viewer
[11:37] Jack Linden:
[11:37] Arawn Spitteler: llGetAvatarViewer would disclose other world info
[11:37] Techwolf Lupindo: HimBaer, knee jerk reactionary there. There no techcianil way to prevent third pary viewer from connnecting. Any measure LL does the third party viewer will just spoof it.
[11:37] Zeebster Colasanti: Tal, question is, if memory is properly handled then why on earth would we need to restart sims to improve their performance? the last recommendation i have received from LL was to restart busy sims (essentially all full prim regions) **at least daily**
[11:37] Dennis Lagan: the SL client still has to pass data to your graphicscard, so someone with a bit of understading can still capture the data, disable third party viewers wouldn’t make it much more difficult
[11:37] Eddi Decosta: Aztral, on the las emerald i know a new options licke script count ?
[11:38] Eddi Decosta: like*
[11:38] Arawn Spitteler: It sucks, trying to follow this conversation o SL2
[11:38] RedMokum Bravin: Yeah… just the amount of scripts… swell.
[11:38] Eddi Decosta: i have that keyboard lol
[11:38] Zeebster Colasanti: Tal, we’re not talking about a script leaking memory. i’m talking about the sim server process leaking memory
[11:38] Ciaran Laval: it would be nice if I could automate a daily sim reset
[11:38] Eddi Decosta: hate*
[11:38] Talarus Luan: That’s a bit of a different issue. Memory fragmentation can have a lot to do with that, as well as when it starts swapping (which is one of the reasons we are talking about script memory limits in the first place).
[11:38] Motor Loon: Sure it would dennis. Have you ever tried GLintercept? it’s neither easy or quick to use
[11:38] HimBaer Pfeffer: Techwolf,. a both side key encrypted counter ?
[11:39] Equinox Pinion: you can do that with a bot ciaran
[11:39] LisaDeanna Zhora: And besides, its not like the DEVS have enough things to do as it is. I mean with all the Krispy Kreme Donut boxes in the office LOL
[11:39] Talarus Luan: OK, Azstral was talking about list-manipulating scripts leaking memory.
[11:39] Aztral Aeon: I’ve taken to using strings are making my own lists that way
[11:39] Qie Niangao: right, and it could be any sim on the server, swapping… restart lands you on a different server.
[11:39] Aztral Aeon: er
[11:39] Dennis Lagan: i wrote parts of a graphics driver for linux, so i don’t see much problems in someone writing his own driver to capture the data to a log file
[11:39] Techwolf Lupindo: HimBaer, just look at any DRM system and how well it held up to prevent copies.
[11:39] Zoha Boa doesn’t wear strings
[11:40] Motor Loon: Jack, I’d like to hear if there’s any plans of improving the G-teams interaction with us, the residents & estateowners
[11:40] Dennis Lagan: there is plenty of opensource code therze available as well to start from
[11:40] Equinox Pinion: did you ever thinkg about giving people who have many sims dedicated servers?
[11:40] Talarus Luan: We’d love that. To put all our sims on the same physical box(es). 
[11:40] Arawn Spitteler recalls: G-Team quit Office Hours, because they were useful to the residents.
[11:41] Aztral Aeon: <- agrees with Moon. I have ARs that I’ve submitted up 5 ARs on already…still not handled. And these are clear-cut violtaions
[11:41] Jack Linden: Motor, there isn’t really a GTeam as such an more, a large team handles the governance side as one of many duties they have. But it’s always been an issue that ARs are private and we don’t engage on them directly.
[11:41] Aztral Aeon: er…violations )
[11:41] LisaDeanna Zhora: We asked about that, and that’s a good idea. Not just those with many regions, but those that wish to have one. Is a good idea. I think..
[11:41] Jack Linden: Realistically we get far too many of them to engage in that way for all of them
[11:41] Talarus Luan: ARs are a black hole.
[11:41] HimBaer Pfeffer: Tech, i am a hardware idiot,. sorry, my idea was only locking viewers a noob can use,.. not the full secure
[11:41] Talarus Luan: Useless, unless submitted en masse on any particular topic, and oft times, not even then.
[11:41] Equinox Pinion: i agree lisa
[11:42] Techwolf Lupindo: AR’s are usless. Crashing a sim that the spammer is advertizing was more effective then AR.
[11:42] Seattle LeShelle: agreed talarus
[11:42] Talarus Luan: Still no action on my ticket Jack.
[11:42] Jack Linden: Sorry to hear that Tal, I’m not sure what the deal is with that. I did believe they had reviewed it.
[11:43] Aztral Aeon: Yes Himbaer….it won’t stop all copybotting..but it’s a start. although like someone said….viewer name can be highjacked
[11:43] Talarus Luan: Not as sorry as I am, I assure you.
[11:43] Talarus Luan: Getting sorrier by the minute.
[11:43] LisaDeanna Zhora: Or even maybe requested host with 2 regions per. Would be a good idea fo those that dont have much or do much with their regions except build > pack and build again. Sort of a umm.. hidy hole type
[11:44] LisaDeanna Zhora: f*for
[11:44] HimBaer Pfeffer: Yes Aztralm, i heared about now people are able to copy scriptcontents too
[11:44] HimBaer Pfeffer: -m
[11:44] Aztral Aeon: Booo
[11:44] Techwolf Lupindo: As I said before, best way to help protect content from un-authrized copying is to fix the DCMA process. Make it un-profitailbe and improve the anti-griefter measures. There is no way to stop it 100%, but to let it run rampant is a bad thing.
[11:44] Liisa Runo: we can never prevent copybotting from happening. But when LL get tools to remove the copybotted stuff from asset servers, copybotting will become lot less popular
[11:44] LisaDeanna Zhora smashes laptop, keys sticking
[11:45] Equinox Pinion: second attempt..did you ever think about giving people who have many sims dedicated servers?
[11:45] RedMokum Bravin: Equinox: colocation?
[11:45] LisaDeanna Zhora: Best way to protect content is, Kill 3rd party viewers
[11:45] Talarus Luan: We’ve found someone blatantly infringing Daryth’s copyrighted works, and have reported them; result? Nothing.
[11:45] Techwolf Lupindo: Lisa, that will make it worse.
[11:46] Yohan Pintens: Lisa: how do you propose on this planet that would be possible?
[11:46] Arawn Spitteler: Viewers are hackable, on the basis that tey’re hackable anyway.
[11:46] Talarus Luan: She filed a DMCA takedown, and he’s still selling.
[11:46] Talarus Luan: For months.
[11:46] Jack Linden: Equinox, we’ve thought about that many times. It may be something we do one day but the way the pooled hardware works doesn’t lend itself to that without some dev
[11:46] RedMokum Bravin: We will only have to copy with hacked official viewers thereafter, LisaDeanna
[11:46] Talarus Luan: I suggested she file suit and name LL for contributory infringement.
[11:46] HimBaer Pfeffer: << agrees Lisa this would be a barrier for the most non profis
[11:46] Equinox Pinion: i see..thanks
[11:47] Talarus Luan: Might get someone’s attention at Linden Lab legal, since DMCA requests don’t seem to be doing it.
[11:47] LisaDeanna Zhora: It’s called a “Process”. If LL killed all 3rd party, than they would have to monitor all viewers that DO ‘hack” (as if they need more to do) and then take actions that way.
[11:48] RedMokum Bravin: They can’t both support OpenSource *and* reject 3rd party viewers.
[11:48] Yohan Pintens: mimicking the official viewer is trivial in as much as linden lab couldn’t tell the difference, so again whats your proposal to get rid of them again?
[11:48] Zeebster Colasanti: Jack, i’m going to ask you to expand a bit on your answer to Equinox, and in fact i’d love it if you were able to expand a little bit on most of your answers concerning new tools or functions. you often tell us that you guys have thought of something and will probably deliver it at some point but it needs work. we need concrete information. is it on the roadmap and when is the delivery date?
[11:48] LisaDeanna Zhora: There is ways, Yohan
[11:48] Talarus Luan: Not really.
[11:49] RedMokum Bravin: There are always “ways” for those who don’t have to implement things themselves.
[11:49] Arawn Spitteler: They just hired new Devs, and might still need seperate Wheat from Chaff
[11:49] Aztral Aeon: nah..viewer could be made ‘hack-resistant’ withencrypted info
[11:49] Aztral Aeon: that changes periodically
[11:49] Talarus Luan: Encryption won’t do squat. The keys are in the hands of the infidels
[11:49] RedMokum Bravin: Aztral: that would be without local .XML files then?
[11:49] Yohan Pintens: Lisa: according to you, but your ways are simply not based in reality. Even before the viewer was open sourced there were client libraries built entirely from reverse engineering the protocol.
[11:49] HimBaer Pfeffer: same tactic as Punkbuster uses in some games
[11:50] HimBaer Pfeffer: check the RAM and harddisk
[11:50] Jack Linden: Zeebster, I would dearly love to be that definitive but I can’t. The roadmap is obviously a living thing and is reviewed/changed often. When we state dates it tends to set expectation and that can be difficult. Whenever we can, we will announce things and give people clear timelines. With large scale development tasks that is hard to do early
[11:50] Talarus Luan: Punkbuster isn’t anywhere near 100% on that.
[11:50] HimBaer Pfeffer: but a small solution
[11:50] Aztral Aeon: i would embed encryped ‘key’ in viewer that must be validated but logging on…i dunno
[11:50] LisaDeanna Zhora: Oh sorry. I didn’t know that this was a pissing contest. Thought it was a discussion
[11:50] Equinox Pinion: it would be great if you would make a wiki entry with your “list” so we could see what if on it and when to expect it jack..and give you our input
[11:50] Aztral Aeon: er..before
[11:50] Ciaran Laval: Play nice
[11:50] Yohan Pintens: Just saying that thought is simply a waste of time and energy and the same argument keeps being made by folks like you that don’t understand technology with and depth
[11:50] Techwolf Lupindo: When B and C are the same person, no encrytion system will work.
[11:51] Equinox Pinion: than we wouldnt bother you all the time with the same issues
[11:51] LisaDeanna Zhora: Im always open to ideas and see who things work, that I dont know about. Of course
[11:51] Talarus Luan: It’s been discussed to death, by people a lot smarter and with a LOT more money looking for the answer than anyone here.
[11:51] Yohan Pintens: its not a pissing contest, the idea you propose simply is not fesible
[11:51] Zeebster Colasanti: we need the roadmap, Jack. you can;t just fly by the seat of your pants. you expect us to run a business here. this isn’t just a fun service you provide us you EXPECT us to run a business because we make you money.
[11:51] Spike Bombastic paid you L$250 for MLCC Tornado (scalemodel).
[11:51] Zeebster Colasanti: i think we have the right to expect linden labs to commit to roadmaps
[11:51] Driftwood Miles: jack when are we getting a 262144m2 30000prim Super Sim?
[11:52] Talarus Luan: If you can come up with a feasible plan, the RIAA and MPAA will pay you gazillions of dollars for it.
[11:52] Jack Linden: Equinox, I guess the question I would have is how we would provide that whilst also making it clear to people that the dates are fluid, and that projects can and do get shelved sometimes. I can totally see the value in us being more transparent though.. it’s just tended to be a hard thing to do well.
[11:52] LisaDeanna Zhora: Agree Zee
[11:52] Aztral Aeon: i’m talking about using a special ‘magic number’…encryped in the viewer…it must be unencrypted before allowing a login
[11:52] Equinox Pinion: lol driftwood
[11:52] Dennis Lagan: jack, noone said you need hard dates, but clear goals
[11:52] Dennis Lagan: and so far you have no clear goals
[11:52] Techwolf Lupindo: Aztral, DRM system use the same thing. They been broken.
[11:52] Dennis Lagan: give us a clear goals list
[11:52] Talarus Luan has heard the “we should be more transparent” mantra ebfore. <.<
[11:52] HimBaer Pfeffer: or a scalable with payment for the top of month ? @ Driftwood ?
[11:52] Equinox Pinion: jack..i understand that dates can switch…and i am sure most do..but having such a list for sim owners would be great
[11:52] Liisa Runo: yea.. roadmap.. i want date for the glorious day when LL have tools to remove reported copybotted assets from servers
[11:53] Jack Linden: Driftwood.. that would be nice wouldn’t it. We’ve some large scale work going on through 2010 that we believe will get us more flexibility on things like that but right now we’ve nothing concrete to share
[11:53] Aztral Aeon: Ah..i gotcha Tech..just thinking aloud really
[11:53] Driftwood Miles: I don’t want concrete…I WAN SUPER SIM!!!!
[11:53] Qie Niangao: Jack,can you tell us anything about the intended objectives of the recent reorganization? (not to get into details, but I mean the one that left Pathfinder without a chair when the music stopped)
[11:53] Driftwood Miles:
[11:53] Dennis Lagan: again, nothing concrete to share. you have no goals, while you say that you are working on them
[11:53] Zeebster Colasanti: Jack, hire a project manager. let me ask you, when you signed up for a new datacentre, were linden labs OK with having it delivered at some point in the future because timelines are fluid and things come up, or did you expect them to deliver by a certain deadline?
[11:53] Jean Swashbuckler: nods at Qie
[11:54] Driftwood Miles: That sounds great Jack and would be an awesome filip for SL
[11:54] Ciaran Laval: Please let’s avoid goals, that’s how we ended up with Zindra
[11:54] Yohan Pintens: lol ciaran
[11:54] Dennis Lagan: why would it be so top secret other then that youi are going to screw us agaun
[11:54] Talarus Luan: Yes, Linden Lab “goals” are scary.
[11:54] Techwolf Lupindo: Blueray is esebit A for DRM, they spent over 10,000,000 dollars and several years creating an “uncrackable” DRM. It was broken in three months.
[11:55] Equinox Pinion: like you told us you would give different rights to estate managers…i have no clue if it is on your list or when about to expect it
[11:55] Techwolf Lupindo: And you expect LL to come up with a better system on less then 10,000,000 dollors?
[11:55] Jack Linden: Qie, I think you know that I can’t comment on things like that. We’ve had many reorgs internally since I joined the Lab, it’s all very normal for a company.
[11:55] Zeebster Colasanti: what is the current org structure and who do you report to, Jack?
[11:55] Talarus Luan: So much for “transparency”
[11:55] Aztral Aeon: sure..really just need to change the ‘magic’ number randomly every once in a while. Not 100% reliable, but would take effort to crack everytime
[11:55] Yohan Pintens: Jack you’re dismissed, I’ll answer your questions for the rest of the hour. I can make up good answers I promise
[11:55] Driftwood Miles: plius a little disconcerting internally and externally
[11:55] Qie Niangao: okay, thanks Jack. Just checking if there was some new direction to announce.
[11:56] Seattle LeShelle: i need clararication on another matter please. gambling- greedy games. is someone allowed to open a greedy parlor and charge av’s to play and particpate in a tournament? If its considered gambline where and how does one go to stop said violations.
[11:56] Techwolf Lupindo: Aztral, blueray did that. Cracked.
[11:56] Equinox Pinion: it was sad to hear pathfinder has to go..he was one of the last few who is in touch with the residents
[11:56] LisaDeanna Zhora: Oh.. I would like to know the “Chain of Command” too… or where to get that info. Seems all the numbers that were on some papers have been moved to , take a guess, Concierge
[11:57] Aztral Aeon: right…then you change the magic num
[11:57] Jack Linden: Hehe Zeebster, not quite sure how I’d draw an org structure in text but.. most of the org is fairly clear in terms of the VPs etc (they are listed on the website)
[11:57] Arawn Spitteler: PAthfiner going?
[11:57] Zeebster Colasanti: ok, and who do you report to?
[11:57] Drongle McMahon: OK Yohan….how are you going to clean up the holdout microplots?
[11:57] LisaDeanna Zhora: Yeah, Path lost or is losing his position, rumor has it
[11:57] Driftwood Miles: gone Arawn
[11:57] Equinox Pinion: sadly gone arawn
[11:58] Driftwood Miles: Welcome Wolf )
[11:58] Ciaran Laval: Harpo is VP of customer relations….I mean Cyn
[11:58] Techwolf Lupindo: They elemanted his position. Another way of fireing someone.
[11:58] Driftwood Miles: lol Ciaran
[11:58] RedMokum Bravin: That might explain why some Lindens make such a mess of their office hours… mainly talking about the weekend and holidays. Never seen that with Jack fortunately.
[11:58] Yohan Pintens: Drongle: We will be doing public executions at noon to deal with the remainder of that problem
[11:58] Wolf Rhosar: hi guys
[11:58] Driftwood Miles: )
[11:58] Aztral Aeon:
[11:58] Jack Linden: Seattle, I’m not sure what greedy parlor is, but our gambling policy is in the help wiki and hasn’t changed recently.
[11:58] Talarus Luan cheers. “Yohan for Emperor!”
[11:59] Jack Linden: Best to star toff by reading that
[11:59] Arawn Spitteler: With Pathfinder going, wo’s net, Prospero?
[11:59] Drongle McMahon: Great … is that noon PST? 1 minute
[11:59] Yohan Pintens: see Jack, give the prople what they want and you too can be the king!
[11:59] Dennis Lagan: jack maybe?
[11:59] Driftwood Miles: we are just reanacting a scene from Henry V Wolf
[11:59] Jack Linden: Yohan, that is genius.
[11:59] Talarus Luan: Bleh.. let’s not gets started on the laughable “gambling policy”. <.<
[11:59] Alexxa Despres: LOL Special
[11:59] Ciaran Laval: Didn’t Prospero go months ago?
[11:59] Alexxa Despres: :p Drift
[11:59] Techwolf Lupindo: When can we AR Zango games?
[12:00] Talarus Luan: Yes, give your customers what they ask for (and pay for), and hey! They will be happy. <.<
[12:00] Techwolf Lupindo: Zango ARE gambling devices.
[12:00] Jack Linden: okays, talking of going, I need to scoot as the hour is up.
[12:00] Ciaran Laval: Zango?
[12:00] Qie Niangao: thanks Jack.
[12:00] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Jack
[12:00] Talarus Luan: Zyngo
[12:00] Arawn Spitteler: Zango doesn’t negotiate it chips as far As Ican gell
[12:00] RedMokum Bravin: Thanks Jack.
[12:00] Equinox Pinion: take care jack
[12:00] Driftwood Miles: Thank you Jack
[12:00] Jack Linden: thanks for the input folks! take care all!